Episode 115: Maintaining Relationships with Prospects – Nick Hart

Predictable Prospecting
Episode 115: Maintaining Relationships with Prospects - Nick Hart
00:00 / 00:00

Prospecting involves more than just one conversation. It’s a series of conversations, and as the prospector, it’s up to you to keep the interactions going. This can result in a lot of work. You need to remember when the last time was that you talked to a particular prospect, work out when the next good time to contact them will be, and figure out what to say – and you have to repeat this process for multiple prospects. Luckily, there are tools that can help streamline this process for you.

Today’s guest is Nick Hart, a strategic customer service manager for Outreach.io. Outreach is a tool that performs much of the work for you. It can help you plan your follow-up conversations, make sure that the correct messages are being delivered at the right times and to the right people, and prevent you from forgetting or delaying crucial follow-ups. Listen the episode to hear Nick explain what Outreach does, how to use different types of messaging, and what types of email statistics Nick sees on a regular basis.

Episode Highlights:

  • What Outreach does
  • How Outreach helps salespeople get the right message across at the right time
  • The importance of being both efficient and effective
  • How certain types of messaging can help prospects see salespeople as real people, which can make prospects more responsive
  • How asking permission can be a form of a call to action
  • How to slow down and space out value ads across multiple emails
  • The importance of crafting different messages for different personas
  • Statistics for email open rates, reply rates, and bounce rates


Nick Hart


Email Nick at: nick.hart@outreach.io


Marylou: Hi everybody it’s Marylou Tyler. This week’s guest you’re going to love, Nick. He’s a strategic customer service manager over at Outreach.io.

A lot of you know that we love Outreach. Outreach is, for lack of a better term, he’ll explain it more, but it’s of a great follow up tool that does a lot of that plate spinning for you, and thinking for you so that basically you come into your office and you’ve got a nice little to do list every day, and it handles all that background virtual assistant type stuff really well to help us improve our follow up which is what our role is all about, trying to get more meetings.

I’ve asked Nick to come on the show today to talk about things that he’s seeing out there since he’s immersed in millions of records on a daily basis. He is like the analytics engine I’m sure and I’ve asked him to come on to talk about his role and to talk about some of the things he is seeing so that you guys are prepared when we enter 2019, and with all this regulation of what to do and how to maximize your return on effort. Nick, welcome to the show.

Nick: Thank you Marylou, it’s a pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me on your podcast. You said it perfectly kind of what Outreach does and the space that we live in, and what I work with, but it would be helpful for me to give you a little more context there

Marylou: Oh yeah definitely, go ahead it’s all yours.

Nick: Specifically Outreach , the world that we live in is helping salespeople streamline their workflow, and so we found that sales people today more than ever are inundated with nonselling related activities and that’s what’s really helping solve that problem, getting reps back to actually spending more time doing selling, so helping with the automated follow up process, tell reps when they’re supposed to follow up with the right type of message at the right time, and then making sure all of that information gets back to sales force.

When we started in this space, it was predominantly in the world of what we call sequences, just helping you figure out when you’re supposed to follow up and why, and with what type of message, and we’ve since evolved into all customer facing teams, so your customer success managers, your renewals managers, your account executive, our strong point is definitely in the in the prospecting space, but we’re seeing a ton of all customer facing teams using Outreach to help streamline the way that they’re communicating with their customers.

Marylou: Yeah, that’s great. Right now, we are focused on prospecting that is my area of expertise, but it is, anyone who touches the potential customer, prospect in this case, or the client, once they come onboard and are in your family, you want to be able to keep that conversation going because we’re all affected by that shiny object syndrome of, “Whoa, there’s something over here I need to look at.”

We want to keep them happy, we want to keep them engaged, we want to keep them loyal so that they are clients for a very long time. You mentioned something that was really interesting to me, the right message at the right time, can you elaborate on what that means for Outreach?

Nick: Absolutely. When prospecting, there’s a lot of different trigger events if you would that tell you when you’re supposed to be engaging with your prospect. That might be found through an external source such as something you found on someone’s Twitter, or their LinkedIn, or maybe in their 10K, or it might be the way that they’re engaging with the contents that you’ve sent out.

I guess when we talk about the first category, a lot of times in prospecting, we do a traditional type John Burroughs what do I do now type of messaging where we find a trigger event about the company or about the individual that we’re reaching out to, and that’s how we start our introduction.

It’s definitely timely in that regard. Sometimes, we don’t have that type of information though, so you might just have to go with the best that you have. You might know about the person’s persona, you might understand what they do based on their LinkedIn, but you don’t necessarily have a timely reason to reach out rather other than, this just looks like the right type of person who would find benefit from what our organization does.

What we can do is, we help service other types of engagement activities, or engagements, or inputs, I guess, if you would. For example, when people are opening your emails, or when they’re clicking on links, you can tell that this person is more interested and we can treat them differently.

I think it’s good to customize your emails for sure, but I also think that it’s important to put forth the effort with those people that are the most engaged, and that’s a lot of what we help people with, surfacing when people are engaged so you can really focus on them at the right time, so as they’re engaging back, as they’re clicking on links, opening content, or engaging with the content that you sent to them, you can engage back in the right way.

Marylou: Yes, so it’s morphed into building that relationship that pre-conversation relationship so that when you do get on the phone with them, or when you do schedule those meetings, there’s this implied trust and rapport that you’ve already established prior to getting on the phone. It is a “warmer” conversation that you’re going to have.

The other thing that I love about what you guys do, we are all really great at sales conversation, that’s why we’re sales professionals, that’s why we chose this field. The problem is, not that we don’t know how to have those conversations, but we don’t get enough of them to get better and better.

You know as well as I do time in the saddle, when you are doing something on a daily basis, you’re going to get better and better at it. So you have the ability to help us have more of these conversations, so that we can deploy the sales methodologies that are all out there scattered all over the place, and how to close, and how to handle objections, and all of that other thing, but we need more of those conversations in order to get better.

Nick: I couldn’t have said it better myself, and I think what’s really interesting, too, is that we’re in a bit of a transition period. When I think about the way that this space has evolved in the last two years since I’ve been with Outreach or even before then when I was in the sales role. We noticed that a lot of these tools came into the market, and we now are giving the power to the salesperson to get email volume out there, and get call volume out there, and now we noticed that the effectiveness of that if you’re not careful, when you’re not trying to fine tune that engine and get better and better content, and better and better messaging, engaging at the right time becomes less effective over time.

There’s more noise, we’re trying to cut through that noise in order to engage. If you look, and we see this in our data as well is that over a very long period of time, if you’re not constantly improving, your reply rate will slowly get lower and lower.

There’s that constant iteration process, the way that we always say it internally is, we want to help our customers become more efficient, which is that first portion I was talk about, as well as more effective. If you’re not focusing on both, your effectiveness will just eventually gradually decline, so you have to make sure that you’re focusing on not only getting enough volume out there which is what you’re talking about, getting enough at bats, having enough conversations where you’re constantly refining that process, so that you can become more effective as well.

Marylou: Right, so it’s the impact and effort, and we’re constantly tweaking, adjusting, analyzing iterating, improving, testing and what’s beautiful about these systems is that, we’re not sitting there using our very precious non selling related time.

We are taking that time that used to be admin and popping it into this automated technologically advanced thing, so that we can then focus on what kind of conversation should I be having? What level of awareness are they at? What’s the purchase intent if they’re at this point in that journey? Where should I be focusing my conversations so that I can advance that person through my funnel, and get them to an opportunity to close, so that we’re both hyper engaged, we’re both excited about moving forward because we’ve warmed them up enough so that they feel confident that they’re going into this with good decisions that they can make along the way?

Nick: Right, yeah, that’s exactly it. What I’m kind of hearing you say is, you want your buyer to see you as a person, as a real person, and that’s why I think we’ve talked about this before, you can’t just be solely reliant on email, and that’s not because email can’t be effective, but it’s a lot harder for your buyer to see you as an individual, as the person that you actually are on the other side of the keyboard when they only receive text emails from you, and that’s why I think social selling is becoming increasingly more important as well as making sure that you’re on the phone.

Actually a perfect example of this, there’s always the debate as to whether or not I should leave voicemails or not leave voicemails. A lot of time sales reps will say, “I shouldn’t leave a voicemail because they’re never going to call me back.” Well, the purpose of the voicemail is to actually make you seem like more of a person. They hear your voice, they know that you seem like you’re a nice person, or a good person. They’re probably more likely to respond to your email or respond to one of your LinkedIn in mail messages because it’s a lot easier to hit unsubscribe on an email than it is to reject a person when you see them as a person.

Marylou: We just did a little mini test in my class about LinkedIn, this was a request to fill out a survey, this was a list where we’re first levels, we’re connected already in some fashion to the person we were placing the request, so there was a warm connection because we, at some point connected to one another. We placed a request in a fashion that was more of ask, and then we placed a request in a fashion that was more permission based. The ask, the direct ask was sending them the link for the first response was like at 3%.

When we did it where we were more personal and asked permission to send them the link if they wanted to fill it out for us, we got 17%. It was really wild to see that. So there are some unwritten rules even in social that go even further into permission based in some cases, not all but the fact is, we tested.

We wanted to see since we’re connected to them, “Hey, here’s the link, go fill it out.” Versus, “Hey, I’ve got this link, I think it would be really helpful for you. A lot of your peers are filling it out, it would be really great if you can do that, but I want to ask your permission to do this, so send me a reply, yes or no, if you want to do it, or no it’s fine, too.” And that was a big difference.

Yeah, you’ve got to test a lot of this conversation, it’s almost as if we’re going from channel to channel, email to phone, to social to direct mail, to fax even in some cases my clients still use that. You’ve got to think about the language that is going to be accepted in that medium. It’s not the same across the board.

Nick: Right. It’s interesting because I work with a lot of customers who are trying to craft the perfect email, one thing in that same realm that you’re talking about is having to have a clear call to action.

A lot of times, people confuse having a clear call to action with being overly pushy, and I don’t think they’re the same. What I love about what you’re just talking about is we can still have a very clear call to action, and our clear call to action is, “Do I have your permission to do X, Y, or Z?” but a lot of times, reps will say, “Well, I don’t want to be too pushy, so I’m just going to send them an email that has all of these resources, and all of these great things that they’ll benefit from.”

When I get an email like that, you’ve got 15 links, and you’re talking about all these things you do great, or all of the value that you could potentially offer me, I get lost in that, I don’t know what you want me to do, I not understand the purpose of an email as a buyer? I think you’re spot on, I think it’s contributing value within that email, and then making sure they have a very clear call to action, and that could be something different than asking for a meeting, you don’t always have to ask for a meeting in an email. It could be referral. It could be permission. It could be advice.

Marylou: It could be a helpful document that I wanted to send you, a direct questions document, it culminates with all of the questions that may be spinning around in your head right now, so go click over there, my gift to you, no strings attached.

Nick: Exactly.

Marylou: It’s really like that, and because we have these tools, we can afford to do that, we can string things out over the course of time, take our ideal sales conversation as if we were sitting across the table from our ideal prospect, and break that up into chunks of conversation and send it out over time. It’s not any different, because we have more records in a lot of cases, not always, but we have more records to work with, we can afford to spread it out, and also with tools like Outreach, we can segment those conversations.

We may have one conversation with a marketing person at the company, and a completely different one going on with the sales operations people, in their language, when they’re ready to consume, but they’re all running simultaneously. We don’t have to remember, “Okay, what did I send to her on this date?” That is all now offloaded, which allows you to focus like you said on perfecting your sales conversation, and that conversation to advance people in the pipeline.

Nick: Yeah, that’s absolutely it. One of my customers said it perfectly, they said, “To marathon, not a sprint.” You often see salespeople do exactly that, they go and they cram 15 bullet points into their first email and go, this is value, I’m contributing value on this email, but the problem is that, you’ve again made this so hard to consume that your buyer is going to read the first line and just unsubscribe.

It’s a marathon, not a sprint. I like to put maybe one or two value ads in each email, and space out over time, and then the other thing that you talked about is having that multithreaded conversation.

I think this is another area that we see a lot of people overlook. It is just a common oversight, I guess I would say. A lot of times, we’ve seen this trend of the account based prospecting and what a lot of people have interpreted that to be is, let me grab all of the people that could potentially be involved in a buying decision within this account, and let me hit them all with the same email.

I’m doing my research, I’ve looked at their 10K. I know what’s relevant to their business, but it doesn’t quite cut it, and the other thing, I mean there’s a lot of things I wish I could go back and tell my former STR self, but I think if there is one thing that that’s coming to mind right now is, the people that you’re talking to, they talk to each other.

If I send an email to 15 people within an organization, and it’s all the same email? The chances are at least a couple of them are going to lean to each other and go, “Did this guy Nick just send you this exact same canned email?” “Yeah, we’re not going to talk to this guy, we’re definitely not going to talk to this guy. He’s phishing for a meeting. He says almost the exact same thing.”

You’re right, you need to have a different message for every different persona that you’re going after.

Marylou: That’s the ideal, you’re going to start probably generic, what we used to do at Predictable Revenue is we say, “Look, grab three records from the company, it’s okay to send them the same generic one, start getting a sense of who’s bubbling up first, and that’s the first person to pull out and then create your own conversation canvass with that role.” Because a lot of times, clients don’t know well, where do I start? Which role of my five roles is going to be the one I should spend time crafting a sequence for?

It could be a lot of work, it seems like a lot of work, it seems a bit daunting when you first get into this. But it’s a nice way to chip away at the response, and see who bubbles up first then they earn the right to have her own sequence, and their own conversation path, and then eventually, yes, you want to get as segmented, as narrow as possible because that will affect the response rate.

Nick: Absolutely. I think for those that are listening to this podcast that are early on in their prospecting days, or trying to figure out what the personas are that they should be going after. I think a great action, or a great process to go through is look at the deals that you’ve closed. If you’re using Salesforce, go into Salesforce, figure out who is involved with those opportunities, who are your buyers, run a report on it, see what types of titles you have, and those can start to become the buckets for your personas.

Then go talk to the sales people that actually close those roles or better yet, go talk to your CSMs or the people that are working with your customers, if you’re trying to figure out what value do you drive for each one of these personas, go talk to them, and ask them, “What kind of value are you getting from our product or service?” Then create those buckets and start with the biggest buckets first. You might start with more of a generic message, and then take off one or two personas like you mentioned, and those start to become your persona based messaging.

Marylou: Now, another thing that we get confused about and you since you deal with millions of records over there, do we need to have content that goes with each email, or can we say give ourselves a break and have dialogue in an email and every so often have a click through, or what are you seeing as best practice in that? Let’s pretend I have eight touch sequence over 32 business days, is content needed for that, and if so, how much?

Nick: I don’t think it’s a perfect science, honestly. We don’t we don’t track that data. There are certain areas that we like to be prescriptive, and there’s others that we don’t. One thing that we did find is, depending on what your call to action is, you really only want to have one.

If you’re trying to book a meeting with someone, then you probably don’t want to have a hyperlink in there as well. Because what’s going to happen is, they’re going to read your email, and click on your hyperlink, and now they’re not in their email anymore, and they’ve forgotten what the call to action actually was. Hopefully, they’re rooting around on your website and doing a bunch of research.

What I would say is, don’t do all one method, so don’t ask for a meeting on every single email, and don’t hyperlink to content every single time. If you’re using a tool like Outreach or any other tool that’s helping you measure your reply rates on emails, you can actually compare them against each other and see which ones can be better.

We found that actually reply rates without links are better for that exact reason that I was mentioning because we’re distracting somebody with a link and we’re sending them elsewhere. I shouldn’t use distracting because it’s not necessarily a bad thing, but just again, it is a marathon not a sprint, so just know the purpose of this email, email to within my 10 email sequence is to give them some content. My call action here is this collateral form.

Now the other thing that I love that I don’t see people using that often are actually PS lines. If you are going to kind of break the rule and have two call to actions, a PS line is a nice way to not completely distract somebody so, “Hey, I’d love to book a meeting with you. How does your calendar look for a 15-minute call next Tuesday or Wednesday? PS, here’s an article I think you should reference.” It’s still really clear for them what you want them to do in the email, but there’s just that little extra added bonus for them as well.

Marylou: Yes, you must be an old soul then because that’s going back to the direct mail days where PS is not all the time, but worked really well. I still use them in my emails, and I do a combination of help, help, help ask, but I still put that predictable revenue email one occasionally in which helps me hone in on the right person in case I’m in a department of 35 marketers and I’m trying to find the one person of those 35 who do what I want to be able to sell them on.

I do have the help, help, help ask, a three to one ratio that I use, and I start my folks out on that pretty much, on the help, help, help we do sometimes add click through, or we put within the body, right in the body, a problem and how it was solved.

So it will probably agitate them, we introduce a problem, we agitate them, and then we solve the problems.

We use a lot of persuasive copywriting techniques in the emails that I help clients design, and my students especially, to make sure that we try these different things out in an AB split test type of environment, and the PS I found and the Johnson box, that is a direct mail again and it’s drawing the eyeball, it’s like a link, it’s before they head links, but it has asterisks or a bar around, it’s like a box, and inside the box is the material that you want them to look at. Your eyes naturally go to that spot.

So we test a lot of times to see if there’s a Johnson box inserted, move them quickly through the email to our click through, or our pain point, or our solving the pain point, or whatever it is, the customer testimonial, whatever you want to throw in there, and chances are in a lot of cases, it does well there as well.

Nick: That’s interesting. I’ve learned something.

Marylou: A lot of this is old school direct mail, that’s where I came up from the ranks when you had to really think about because it was hard dollar cost to send a letter with stamps and paper that you need to do a lot of planning, so I’m a real stickler for planning as much as possible because, executing is expensive, and planning is not. That’s my whole view.

Nick: Yeah, I love it, yeah that’s good.

Marylou: So the other question I might ask before we go because I don’t take a lot of your time here, you have I’m sure in your head, some of the statistics. I read an article that you wrote that just totally flipped my world around. You were talking about the follow up statements that doesn’t help much, what kind of set of benchmarks could you share with the audience of what you’re seeing? First of all what the benchmark is? Why is it relevant? Why do you think it’s important? And if there are any advice that you have to improve that, let us know.

Nick: Absolutely. There’s a couple, let’s start with just overall email stats on an individual email basis. The first is, we see across our entire customer base that about a 30% open rate is fairly standard.

Actually a funny story, I had a customer the other day, this was a couple months back, and he was using Outreach to send out all his emails, he came to me, he was completely perplexed he goes, “I just don’t understand, we’re getting 40% open rate.” I was, “Yeah, what’s the problem?” he goes, “Well everybody should be opening this email. I mean why wouldn’t they? Who doesn’t open their emails? We should be getting 100% open rate.”

So I thought that was funny. We’re seeing about a 30%––27% is specifically the last time I pulled the data is what we’re seeing for an individual email open rate. The next is reply rate. Now the other thing to keep in mind, the only caveat––all of these stats that I pulled are specifically for the outbound prospecting type motion. That what we’re talking about here in general but just keep in mind that if you’re going to take these stats back to your CSM team, it’s probably going to be very different.

Marylou: This is targeted with Outreach, this is not necessarily blended inbound, outbound nor is it a referral system, it’s targeted Outreach where you’re selecting the records that you want to go after.

Nick: Exactly. We’re looking about 30% open rate, we see about a 3% reply rate, 3% to 4% is kind of the sweet spot on emails. Then bounce rates, obviously you want to keep those as low as possible, a lot of that’s going to be indicative of the data provider that you use as well as just following good email deliverability best practices. I could spend an entire session on what are good practices and what are bad practices when it comes to email deliverability.

But what we’re seeing, if you can keep that below about 3%, that’s awesome. If you’ve got something drastically higher, you want to work with your data provider to figure out, can you give me some better data?

Marylou: Yeah, what’s going on? If I did that case study in Predictable Revenue where we are comparing to of these vendors one against the other and the bounce rates were 30% online and I think 3% to 5% on the other one which meant, I had a lot more time to deal with it, because at that time, we had to actually pull those records, we didn’t have a marketing automation system yet to help us take those out.

There was a lot of admin time spent just managing the list, and taking care of the list, and cultivating new names where if we had a good rate, then we wouldn’t have to worry about that. It’s going to replenish itself once the records were in incubation, we can then replenish it. But this case, almost least 30% got replenished as I go in order to make more numbers.

Nick: Exactly. One thing just because I work with a lot of these data provider companies out there, if you go, or if anybody listening to this goes to them and say, “Well, Nick from Outreach says that we should begin at 30%.” That’s not what I’m saying at all. It’s 3% across all of your emails that you’re sending, so if you’re reaching out to a prospect and sending them hopefully 7-10 emails a piece, and that’s going to dilute the bad data, or the inaccurate data that you might be getting from your data provider.

So definitely don’t go to your data provider and ask for a 3% bounce rate. Otherwise, you’re going to leave. I don’t think anybody can get close to that. I work with the best of the best. The other one that I think is really important to highlight is opt out rate.

I work with a lot of sales teams that are resistant at first to include unsubscribe within their emails, and I always feel like it’s important to explain why it’s critically important.

We talked about being in a GDPR world where not only is it legally required, but if you don’t allow somebody the option to opt out of your email, the first thing that they’re going to start doing is marking you as junk, and this kind of gets into the email deliverability best practices but if you get marked is junk enough, then that’s going to ruin the reputation of your entire domain. It means that you’re not going to ever be able to send them emails again, as well as your colleagues may never be able to send them emails. You want to watch out for that.

The other problem, too is that, if you don’t have an unsubscribe link, then you’re probably going to get a high number of people that are responding saying, “Unsubscribe.” So when we’re looking back at those reply rates, they’re going to be artificially inflated. You really want to watch out for that because you might think you have a killer template that you’re using , or a killer sequence and in fact it’s just a bunch of people telling you, “Don’t email me again.”

Marylou: Yeah, never contact me again. Let’s go back to the reply rate just to make sure I understand, the audience understands, that 3% to 4% is that individual or is that across the sequence?

Nick: That’s an individual email reply rate.

Marylou: Okay, so the cost of sequence you can aggregate.

Nick: Yeah. I was going to come back to this, so that the last piece is that if today you’re not using a tool like Outreach, or anything that’s helping you automate this entire playbook, or all of your touch points, it’s going to be hard for you to pull this data but arguably, I think the most important number to look at is your overall sequence reply rate, or your overall effectiveness of the campaign that you’re running.

Between all the different touch points that we’re having, so our phone, our email, our social, how effective are we at actually getting this prospect to respond to us? What we see as a good baseline is around 12%.

Marylou: Okay, and does it matter whether it’s blended, meaning multichannel, or email only? Do the rates change when you have that data to say, I have some clients who are very resistant of using the phone on the cold sequences, they want to do an email only, what we call wake up to chill campaigns and while they’re sleeping, they’re getting people to reply. I know that’s not recommended, but do you have numbers for that type of campaign versus a blended phone, email, or multichannel, or is it both multichannel?

Nick: It’s blended. Every organization’s reply rate is going to differ, whether email, or phone is more effective, you might have an abysmal email reply rate simply because your buyer is just not on email that often, that doesn’t mean to leave email completely out as well as vice versa.

For example, you look at us, we sell predominantly to sales people, sales people are often at their phones, and sales leaders even are usually pretty accessible on their phone. We actually get a pretty good phone response rate, and our email response rate is a little bit lower.

So we would get almost a 10% answer rate on phone, or email is lower like in the 2% range that might be completely flipped if you’re selling to IT. The nice thing about looking at about 12% is that, that’s a good baseline again for you to kind of focus on between the two.

Marylou: Yeah, and what we look for is baselines because we know there are so many different situation as Nick said before, the prospect persona, and how they like to consume information, and read or whatever they like to do, is what drives how you’re blend books, and what your blend response rates are going to be, and there is a difference sometimes between IT marketing, and sales that’s my sort of area. They vary wildly, depending on the persona, but I know that so I know how to plan for that when I’m doing my blend, so that I have those conversations filling up the pipeline, and there’s no peaks and valleys.

All of these things allow you to almost practically perfectly design your sequences so that you’re not doing those peaks and valleys of trying to fill the funnel up. So within the quarter, if you’re on all rolls like a lot of my folks are, you are trying to close business, it’s so hard to try to think about prospecting at the same time.

If we have tools like this where you can turn it up, amp it up a little bit, get that going, and that way you can still close business and have automation help you need maybe more or less depending on where you are in your cycle of sales.

Nick, this has been such a great conversation, how do we get a hold of you to learn all that you’ve been learning so that we get smarter, too.

Nick: Yeah, absolutely. Well, this has been really fun. Feel free to reach out to me on LinkedIn again it’s just Nick Hart, if you want to shoot me an email as well, I’ll give you that, it’s nick.hart@outreach.io.

If you’re curious about product or just what we do as an organization, feel free to reach out, if you just want to network, do so as well, I always welcome it. Marylou, thank you so much for having me on your podcast.

Marylou: My pleasure, it was really fun, and I will add being an Outreach user for years now is, there’s a lot of training materials on their website, and you could go there whether or not you are an Outreach user or not. Start learning and understanding especially since we’re moving into these more sophisticated and strategic sequencing and cadences.

There are a lot of things that these tools do now that are beyond what we thought ever could be possible. As Nick said, they can halt the sequence so that you can send a direct mail. They can do all these weird things now that allow you to be in total control of your sales conversation, that presales conversation, and as he said, you’re taking it all the way into the pipeline, so nourish your sequences whether they are clients, or maybe they’re prospects waiting to come back in later.

These are all areas of the pipeline, physical locations where you can apply these sales conversation canvasses to keep your prospects and clients engaged. Thanks again Nick, I loved having you on the podcast and take care.

Nick: Alright, it was good chatting. Bye.