The current trend with sales teams is moving away from generic messages and the batch and blast approach. The method that everyone’s talking about and trying to focus on now is personalization. Customized methods can be incredibly difficult for an SDR to create. My guest today is an expert at personalization for sales teams and we discuss challenges and solutions for crafting personalized emails for effective sales.
On today’s show, I am speaking with Kristina McMillan from TOPO a research and advisory firm that focuses exclusively on sales and marketing organizations. They have dedicated practices for sales, sales development, and marketing. The focus is on market research, executive advisory, and the study of high-growth organizations to understand the processes, levers, and best practices that contribute to high growth.
- Challenges with creating personalization at scale and having a repeatable structure that allow customization.
- The four stage messaging framework research, crafting the message, 2-3 touches a week, and using technology to automate.
- Knowing what to look for in the research stage.
- The three steps to crafting a message: setup, engage, and offer.
- The importance of understanding the role of the contact person.
- The offer should draw the client into the conversation to learn how I can help them.
- Using the touch patterns together with the framework. Sequencing and cadencing.
- Touch at least two to three times a week. A frequency that builds familiarity.
- Recognition and having a multifaceted profile for contacting a client.
- The importance of telling stories or having cliffhangers and persuasive copywriting.
- How people will respond when you offer something of value to them.
- Maximizing your return on effort.
- Kristina McMillan on LinkedIn
- Kristina McMillan on Twitter @Lifeiterated
- TOPO Blog
Marylou: Hi everybody. It’s Marylou Tyler. This week’s guest is Kristina McMillan. I was introduced to Kristina through a colleague of mine and I’m really excited about what we’re going to talk today about because she is, even though her title says Director of Research, she works for a company called TOPO.
She’s going to talk about a subject that’s near and dear to all of us now and she’s an expert in, which is personalization. She has a variety of expertise but since we’re kind of funnelling this into a 20-minute conversation, we decided that personalization was something near and dear to everyone’s heart. We’re all struggling with it. We don’t know really what the framework and method looks like and if there’s a system we can put into place so Kristina is going to set us straight today.
Welcome to the podcast, Kristina.
Kristina: Thank you for having me.
Marylou: Tell us first about TOPO because I pronounced it incorrectly. Tell us a little bit about that because people are like, “What?”
Marylou: Start there and then you can just dive right into personalization and start enlightening us and educating us about that.
Kristina: Sure, I’m happy to. TOPO is a research and advisory firm. Similar to Gartner group, although except we don’t focus on IT. We focus exclusively on sales and marketing organizations. We have dedicated practices for sales, sales development, and marketing.
What we do is we help our clients through executive advisory. We do a ton of research on the market. What we really consider to be our secret sauce is that we exclusively study high growth organizations to understand what are the different processes, levers, best practices that make them successful and really contribute to that high growth.
I’ve been with TOPO now for almost three years but my background has been largely in helping sales development and inside sales organizations lay those foundational processes and ramp their teams.
One of the questions that always comes up either in advisory or even just in passing is with all of the trends out there and sort of the shift to account based that a lot of teams are talking about, we’ve seen sort of historically everyone moving away from batch and blast and sort of generic messages to the opposite end of the spectrum, which is 100% personalization, customized messages.
The reality of it is that they’re incredibly difficult for an SDR to create. We’ve seen some amazing bright stars out there. People love to throw up those, I call them the silver bullet emails, where it’s like well of course, somebody will respond to that. It’s like the most beautifully crafted email I’ve ever seen. The trouble is really less than 10% of SDRs can create emails like that. Not because they’re not smart but it’s rare that everything organized is in a way for you to have great trigger events or five ideas of exactly how you could help that organization. It’s just too hard.
The challenge that I hear now is teams are saying, “Okay great. I like the idea of customization. It sounds really good. It sounds really meaningful to my prospects but we just can’t do it at scale.”
Now, we’re seeing that pendulum swing back to the middle a bit and teams are trying to figure out what is that recipe or that formula for doing personalization at scale. We find in working with our clients and some of the research we’re doing that it really is trying to distill it down to a formula.
We have our own formula. I’ll share. I know we’re just speaking so it’s a little hard to visualize this. But if you can think about it, what you’re trying to lay out for an SDR and a whole team is really a structure to follow that they can repeat, that allows for a level of personalization that’s still going to be meaningful to that prospect or buyer but makes it easy for me to wash, rinse, and repeat as an SDR.
You can think of it kind of in four stages. We call this our messaging framework for SDRs but I have to prepare the message. The research that I have to do upfront to figure out how I’m going to customize, there’s a certain amount of things that I need to do.
In that, the challenge that we often see is teams go, “Okay great. I go tell my SDRs to research.” But then, they spend an hour researching a prospect. Now, I have sort of two responses to that. One of which is, “Oh, is that bad?” It depends on the account. An hour on a top 10 strategic account, totally worth the time.
The second question I would ask or reaction I would have is, “Did you tell them what to look for?” Too often, I hear teams say, “I’ve given my SDRs guidance. I tell them go read the 10-K, visit the website, go check them out on LinkedIN.” I’m like, “That’s great. But picture yourself in their shoes. If they go to a 10-K, it’s a pretty lengthy document. Do they know where to look? Do they know what to look for? Do they know what they’re supposed to do with the information that they find?”
The same goes for someone’s LinkedIn profile. If I go to their LinkedIn, what am I supposed to be zeroing in on? Is it their experience? Is it the people that they know that I may also want to reach out to? What is it? Same for the company website. You can imagine how this goes on and on.
We find that with this formula in mind, you have to give guidance on how to do that preparation or that research most effectively. It might be literally go to LinkedIn and look at these three things. But the goal is for you to walk away to be able to use something from their LinkedIn profile as a setup for your conversation.
Kristina: Or go to the company’s website and be able to describe in one to two sentences what it is that they do and use that as a way to identify our customers that might be [00:06:11]. They’re trying to answer a question or to complete an assignment, if you will, with that research as opposed to stomping around the site until they sort of feel comfortable but still can’t remember what it is that they’re supposed to know about that organization. Does that make sense?
Marylou: Makes perfect sense. I love that. You’re putting together the ingredients of a good recipe.
Kristina: Thanks. The second piece after we prepare the message, there are three steps in that second piece, which is actually crafting the message. Those three steps are the setup, the engage, and the offer.
What we look at that is anytime we reach out to someone, there’s context we have to provide. That’s the setup. That’s the why am I reaching out to you? How am I either mentioning a referral, someone we have in common, some reason as to why I’m reaching out to you now, some other methodologies like why you? Why you now? Try to position this as to what is the moment at which that I felt I had to email you now. You’re giving that context to set it up.
The engage is where we deliver that relevant message to this person. When we think of that in terms of formula, a lot of people go back to the templates. I’m going to tell them exactly what we do with the three bullet points. I may do that by vertical. That’s some level of personalization.
The problem is what we want to do is try to figure out how do I position something that might be useful to that person as a way to engage them? In my research, one of the things that I might’ve had to check off is do I understand what this person’s role is. I know that a manager of IT is different than a CIO. I should be able to go back and say, “Okay, how do I tell a story that a CIO cares about versus a manager of IT?”
IT is one of the most old tune and unfortunately, they’re some of the best at ignoring us but the point is if I can be strategic in my conversation and in how I engage with a CIO versus a manager of IT, I might be a little more tactically focused because that’s what their life is like. That’s the stuff that they’re dealing with, the fires they’re fighting, the chaos, etc.
If I can engage with them around a particular use case story that is relevant to how we helped another manager of IT in their specific vertical, I can say something along the lines of, “You know? We’re actually talking to a lot of store operations folks over at Tory Burch so I’m talking to an IT organization and a retailer. The interesting thing is they struggle with the fact that it takes three months to open a new store. Part of that is because their teams are struggling with how to collaborate on all of the different things that have to happen to get to source it up, prepare it and ready to open. Just by using our collaboration platform, we were actually able to help them reduce that store opening time from three months to three weeks.”
Now, I move into the offer. “I’d love to set you up to talk with one of my account executives around how they might be able to expand on that story for you. Do you want to dig in a little further? We have a lot of examples of how we’ve helped store operations folks at other retailers. I’d love to talk to you more about that.”
Let me tell you everything I learned about my organization as an SDR and verbally vomit on you. But rather let me see if I can draw you into conversation that provides value to you. The setup I offer, the use case stories, we do engage, and then I close with that offer.
Now, with that formula in place, I know my research is to help with that setup to be able to tell the story and then to be able to have a compelling offer. I’m able to wash, rinse, and repeat in that same structure. I’m a parent but I use the analogy of bowling. The first time you take someone bowling, if you don’t give them bumpers, it’s not going to be any fun at all. But if you give them bumpers so that the ball can actually get to the end and maybe they can knock down one pin, they’re going to get better at it and then you can start to give them a little bit more autonomy after that by taking the bumpers off.
But the bumpers help you stay in line and get to the end. That’s the same thing for an SDR. We’re giving them the structure to follow so that they can be successful. This structure is proven. We often go in and do these trainings with clients of ours and literally, the SDRs can walk out of these trainings and we get messages either later that afternoon or within the next few days, which is like I tried it and look at this response I got. It’s literally because they’re like okay, now I can think about it, what is my setup, what is my engage, and what is my offer. It just makes it a lot easier for them. Does that make sense?
Marylou: Yeah, perfect. Cool.
Kristina: I would say that the next thing that we’re seeing as teams continue to expand on this is thinking about how this framework can carry to not just the individual messages that they’re crafting, whether it be an email, whether it be a voicemail, whether it be a social touch, or even that first qualification call. But it’s how do I use all of those together.
Starting to think about, again, there is no one silver bullet email or they’re too hard to craft in this case and so, how do I use my touch pattern collectively together. Multiple emails over the course of a couple of weeks combined with multiple conversations, how do I start looking at all of those as sort of more complex setups, more stories that are unfolding over a series of emails so it might be again, using our example before, an IT manager.
I may zero in on one challenge in the first email that I sent but I may select a different challenge with a different story in the second email. My offers may change as well and so we start to think about how this has magnitudes of implications over all of the touches that an SDR might do.
Marylou: We call that sequencing and cadencing in our world. If you’re following along and trying to figure out where this fits in Predictable Prospecting, it’s definitely in the chapters on sequencing where we talk about what to say, when to say it, with whom to say it and in what modality, which is what you just said.
Marylou: Perfect. That’s number three, sequencing and cadencing and how to format. Have you guys come up with some recommended patterns? I get a lot of questions about that, “How often should we send emails?” Not necessarily how long should they be in length but how long should the sequence be. Is there some research guidelines that you’re coming up with as the result of looking at the sampling of a large number of records?
Kristina: That’s a great question. There’s no hard and fast it has to be this touch on this day and there lots of data out there that we don’t provide on what is the best time to email, what is the best time to call? But what we do know is that there is a frequency that has to be bumped up. Like once a week, it’s too news letter-y for those prospects and it doesn’t stand out. It’s too easy to ignore.
Where we see most SDRs having the greatest success is two to three times a week. I am doing some touch that that prospect with remember. If I’m doing war dials or in between dials and I’m not leaving a trace, meaning I’m not leaving a voicemail, I’m not following it up with a note, we don’t count those. They’re still good to try and catch the person live of course, but of the things that they will remember, we want a frequency that starts to build familiarity but not so much that it’s stalkerish. Once a day is excessive and most people would get really, really annoyed.
However, if I did, let’s say a call and an email on Tuesday to try and see if I could get the person, and I had a very compelling message, it’s not unheard of that I may try again to reach them either the next day or Thursday. To do it again on Friday might be excessive and so that’s why we sort of say two to three. And then this unfolds over a series of anywhere from two to four weeks depending on, again, how sophisticated the overall sequence might be.
What we’re trying to do is a couple of things. We’re trying to increase it such that there’s potential recognition. The first voicemail, the first email, even maybe the second batch of those, they don’t know who you are. But once they start seeing your name rolling across their inbox a couple of times, they may not know why but they’re like, “Why does that look familiar?” We’ve all done that like, “Do I know that person or should I know that person?”
And then we know that prospects don’t historically return voicemails but a lot of them don’t get as many voicemails as we think anymore depending on the target market that that prospect’s in and so sometimes, they’ll just check them. As soon as they hear the, “Hi so and so. I’m calling from da, da, da.” That’s maybe when they hit delete but now, they’ve heard your name and your voice and so when they see that email with your name coming through, they’re like, “How do I know that name?”
Now, you can imagine if you’re getting a LinkedIn message from that person or a shoutout on Twitter. It’s creating this multifaceted profile of this person who’s trying to reach you. And so, recognition goes up such that next time you see that email come through, you’ll be like, “I wonder why this person wants to get me so much.” We find as an SDR, you’re creating that frequency, that concentration that gives you a higher likelihood of getting that response.
This is beyond my research but we’ve looked into this a lot and there’s psychology that shows that once you become more human, it’s a lot harder for people to ignore you. It’s much easier to ignore and delete messages from a stranger than it is from someone who’s familiar. You’re increasing that likelihood that again, they will actually see that highly relevant valuable message that you’re sending across.
Again, just to recap, it’s usually two to three touches, sometimes two to four is okay if you’re doing double touches like calls and emails together, per week for two to four weeks. If you’re doing very strategic account base with very high value offers, you could potentially layer in another touch or two per week, highlighting those offers because again, they’re relevant to the person and you can potentially stretch that to the full four weeks.
But after that, it’s very important. People can get fatigue if that frequency continues. That’s why the once a week for a year newsletter is very easy to ignore because you’re just used to it. It fades into the background. This concentration has to come to an end, which we talked a little bit before about the closing emails, the first time we all got that have you been eaten by alligators note, we actually thought it was funny. We’re like, “That’s pretty cool.”
But the 15th time I got it from an SDR and it wasn’t executed very well, I was like, “Okay, now I just know that it’s been widely adopted so it’s not as effective so we have to try something else.” By closing out that communication, we’re letting the person know it’s going to stop and that gives us the space to let them rest for a couple of months, depending on how we’re targeting folks. We may rest them for two to four or even six months and then come back to them and try again with more relevant use case stories and high value offers.
Marylou: I definitely am a fan of incubating, depending on the list size and whether you have the luxury to do that. Some of my clients are at top 300 accounts and that’s it so they’ve got to figure out ways to incubate but maybe they incubate by persona. But there’s definitely an incubation process where you let them rest and go to sleep and then come back later.
I’m jumping for joy and giddy over here to hear you say that two to four weeks, two to four touches, it’s like twisting the arms of my clients when I tell them, “Please, we need to do at least two a week.” And they look at me like I can’t do that.
Kristina: Then we’re spread too thin.
Marylou: We have nothing of value to be able to share with these prospects and they look at me like that’s a low blow.
Kristina: But it’s fair, right? We’ve seen them following up, circling back, checking in. It’s like, “Can we just tell another story?”
Marylou: I like to do more story. I have the circle with the red line through just checking in. I do not let my clients do that but I do love these stories and I like the cliff hangers where you’re doing email sequences much like the series of television shows where you have that cliff hanger at the end and they have to tune into the next email to find the solution to the cliff hanger.
I like a lot of the persuasive copywriting techniques that keep us engaged to utilize that in the cold streams. Even in the working status when you’ve got someone that you know they are in need of your service and you’re trying to get them to that first meeting or beyond.
Kristina: I’ll just tell a quick story of a client I had that I thought was just such a fun example. In that, it was possibly one of the most unsexy prospects that they were going after. This particular SDR, actually, we were trying to solve his challenge around personalization and he was targeting public utility managers at city water districts in the UK. We’re like, “Okay? How do we make this interesting?”
He had one use case. That was it. He says, “We have client and it’s working smashingly for them.” And we’re like, “Okay great. Let’s tell his story.” I forgot the particular name of the customer but let’s say it was John Smith at SX water district. He sent 1 email to 50 targets and he said, “We’re working with John Smith at SX whatever it was. He was struggling with this problem. There were tons of problems he was struggling with but we just highlighted this one and we actually were able to help him reduce that particular bad metric by X percent.
We’d love to just talk to you by how we might be able to do something similar for you. It was super simple but targeted story, he got a 56% response rate and 30% of them were meetings. It was on one email.
Marylou: Wow. That’s great.
Kristina: Because it just mattered to them. They were like, “You’re talking to me. You get my people. You get people just like me. I’m just like John.” It’s just that people will respond when it’s something that’s valuable to them. You can’t guarantee that 100% of the time they have that specific challenge. I often get this question from SDRs. What if I pick the wrong challenge? I’m like, “No problem.” We’re always talking about how prospects never read our emails or whatnot and now, you’re telling me that you expect every single one is going to read your email and not want to talk to you.” I’m like, “No problem.”
They’re not going to remember. Lead with another challenge story the next time. I’m like, “Just keep trying them on until you find when it resonates.” You are trying to be helpful and you’re doing so in the language that matters to these people. If you piss someone off, no problem. That’s that particular prospect, I guarantee, that will not happen across the board.
Marylou: Yes. Unless they’re carrying you out of their office, physically removing you, it’s okay to continue.
Kristina: That’s a great way to look at it.
Marylou: Well it actually happened to me back in my selling days. That’s why I can use that phrase with authority.
Kristina: There you go.
Marylou: That’s awesome. Alright, we’re on number four. We’ve got research to recap and we got some great ideas from Kristina that it’s important for you to outline what areas, even specific locations, especially if you’re a Beverly Hill company, you’re going through those gigantic documents that do give you a lot of information but you need to know where to look.
Just set up a research now. Tell us again that number, an hour for a large account, a top 10. In the book, we talked about it takes 10 to 15 minutes per what we call extended universe accounts, which are important but not as important as the top 10. What’s that range for the [00:23:02]?
Kristina: That’s a great question. I would say that it’s rare that I run into, I mean it has to be a strategic account if you’re going to spend an hour. More so what I see happening is SDRs are spending 30 minutes on what’s called normal accounts for them and that’s too much time. That’s just too much time. If we’re very specific about what they’re looking for, they should be able to execute that in three to five or five to seven minutes, depending on that account.
If I’m setting up the whole pattern, the whole sequence and I’m doing so upfront—I do see some SDRs do that such that they can set it to send on certain days—then I may spend a little bit more time making sure that I do understand their profile. I know which specific stories I want to tell and how they’re going to unfold over the two to four weeks. Then I may spend time a little bit more on that prep stage.
It should be quick and easy for me to find that because again, the whole goal is to run through the formula, wash, rinse, repeat. It should be definitely 10 minutes or less for most accounts. If you’ve got complex and/or there’s expansion opportunities where we need to know a little bit more about what we’re already doing in there, I would layer in maybe an additional 5 to 10 minutes but it should definitely be in the 5 to 10 minute range for most accounts.
Marylou: Okay. I have one client who actually has a research group that does the research for SDRs. How wonderful is that?
Kristina: If you can do that, that’s even better because then—we’ve done the same thing. We’ve told that research group exactly what to look for so we can structure that information for our SDRs so they can just take it and customize the message.
Marylou: I know. It’s so great. Now, we’re moving on to IM2, which is crafting. You’re very specific there; the set up, the engage, the offer, so we won’t dive into that one too deeply. In the book, for those of you who have read Predictable Prospecting, there’s the compel with content framework, which follows very similarly to what Kristina was talking about with set up, engaging, and offer. The difference is the offer for us is sometimes help, help, help then ask so the offer is more helping than it is asking, and some of our sequencing.
The third one was the actual sequence, which you gave us some really advice about two plus touches a week everyone. So what’s the fourth one?
Kristina: The fourth one, gosh. To us, we always look at it as you have to establish the right process. You have to help them wash, rinse, and repeat manually and then you got to find a way to automate it where you can. Technology is the fourth one to us, generally. In that, we have to figure out like you said, are there ways to make this easier and more scalable for the teams so can we have someone else do the research? Or if we know exactly what we’re looking for, can we go out there and find the data solutions vendor that can give that to us without my team having to do that, individually stomping all over the internet.
Technology will be that next piece and we know that for particularly outbound teams, who are having to do a lot of this prep, because I don’t always have something to refer to and latch onto, are there ways that I can then organize all of those touches that we want them to do, the two plus per week? The sales email, the dialling automation, the general engagement vendors are starting to blend all of these multiple touches into their platforms and they’re good but we know that teams are still struggling with the, “Great, I’ve got them all set up in my cadences and sequences and outreaches and whatever it is.”
I need to make sure that I’m thoughtful around prioritizing how to execute those because they set them up and then they find that they want a vacation for a week and they came back and they’ve got 1,000 overdue in the sequences.
Marylou: Right. Chaos.
Kristina: Yeah, chaos, so they can still execute them but making sure that we’re staying on top of what we need to do and helping them make choices around how to manage that technology.
Marylou: Really, the last one is putting in the necessary, people call it stack, people call it technology, process, but the goal is to maximize return on effort, ROE, people. That’s really where once we figure out the perfect ingredients for our perfect recipe for our perfect segment of account, then what we’re going to do to give us that rinse and repeat capability is we’re going to latch on to the technologies that will allow us to maximize return on effort. Some things still will be manual. Some things will be automated. Some accounts will run complete automation. Some accounts will run with hyper personalization.
Kristina, this has been great. I think the structure to follow for this personalization is wonderful. People are driving in their cars right now or they’re on the treadmills. I’m not sure how they listen to this podcast but how do we get off whatever we’re on and actually look up from you how we can dive into this deeper, where should we go? What tools do you have? How do we get more of you and this research that you’ve done?
Kristina: We certainly work with clients on a lot of this stuff but for anyone who’s just interested in peeking in, we do a variety of things. We have our blog where we publish some of our seminal research and some of these best practices. We also do quite a few events. It’s one of the more special things that I think TOPO does and it’s actually one of the reasons that I was intrigued to join TOPO, in that we do what we call councils, but we do them specifically, I think there’s a lot of council events and meetups and stuff out there that are great. They have panels.
I think they’re amazing resources but the one thing that always struck me as particularly interesting about TOPO councils is that we really dig in thematically to very specific problem like this one we talked about today with personalization and we do so with peers. We have a sales development council that brings sales development leaders from various sizes of teams, various stages in their careers, various evolutions of the organizations that they serve, and we bring them together and we say, “Okay, great. Let’s dive into the challenges around personalization. Let’s share in a very active way, not just networking but let’s actively share what our challenges are and how everyone in the group is addressing those.”
We usually get together, depending on the size of the event, 20 to 40 sales development leaders to talk about these types of things and I think they’re pretty darn magical. They’re a great way to meet peers but they’re just a great way to walk away with. As I think I mentioned to you before, TOPO really believes in thought leadership but we believe equally in specificity. We believe that our job is not only to sort of post these utopias of where we want you to get to in terms of personalization or the way you do outreach or whatnot, but actually trying to help you figure out the steps to get there.
One of the things that council, that we find particularly interesting is people walk away with those things that they can go do with their teams right away. It’s like, ”Okay, I understand that ideally, my team should be here but to get on the road to that, I take this very next step and then this very next step.” They feel like there’s stuff that they can go do to get closer to that ideal.
Those councils are pretty magical. We also do an annual event where we get together, sales and marketing leaders, to talk about all these kinds of things but we have a dedicated track for sales development as well as sales prospectors. We call them rep effectiveness workshops where actual reps will come and say, “Look, I want to get better at my craft. What’s the best way to do discovery? What’s the best way to do prospecting? What’s the best way to do outreach, personalization, all of these different things? And we’ll walk them reps through them.
We also do equivalence for the managers, which is like for sales development in particular, the revolving door of personnel in this team, how do I manage that? How do I have better practices and fail safes in place to protect consistency around pipeline generation? We’ll tackle things like that and we certainly present some of our research but we actually feel that there’s a lot of learning to be done from your peers.
We call them tear downs. We put peers up on stage and have them walk you through all of the trials and tribulations that they’ve gone through and how they’ve come out on the other side. It’s a great opportunity to get more visibility into that. We have that coming up in late March here in San Francisco on I believe the 20th and the 21st.
Marylou: That will be 2018.
Kristina: 2018, correct.
Marylou: This is airing now. It’s getting close to October 2017 that we’re airing this. To check out that information, you can go to Kristina’s website, go ahead and give us the location and I’ll also put this in the show notes so that people who are driving are not going to stop and try to type and write down at the same time.
Kristina: It’s www.topohq.com. And then for anyone that has any questions coming out of this, I’m always happy to answer a few questions. They can always reach out to me and my analyst team, email@example.com. And as best as we can, we can shoot out some quick answers. I can’t promise that my sales guy won’t see it so I’ll do my best to hide it from him but it is a good way to get some answers from the team.
Marylou: Very good. Thank you so much, Kristina, for attending today. This is a topic that’s going to continue to be fine tuned because as you said, the batch blast, what we used to call spray and pray, is in some areas a thing of the past, I still use it in some accounts and it depends on the size, number of records we have, and the average deal size. Segmentation is really important. But, great ideas.
Again, to recap, it is research, it was crafting the right message, sequencing those messages, and then wrapping out in a process bow around the whole thing so that you can maximize your return on effort.
Kristina, thanks again for your time.
Kristina: Thanks for having me.